Exclusive: Erin O'Toole's counsel warns of "Chilling Effect" from Hogue Commission questioning of Parliamentary Speech on PRC Interference
OTTAWA, Canada — In a unique twist for the Hogue Commission, a lawyer for Erin O’Toole, one of the key witnesses in the proceedings, pushed back on a line of questioning that challenged O’Toole’s rights to discuss sensitive intelligence in Parliament.
Preston Lim, counsel for the former Conservative leader, addressed concerns raised in hearings last week regarding the propriety of O'Toole’s 2023 Parliamentary speech on foreign interference against the Conservatives and diaspora voters by the People’s Republic of China.
It emerged from O’Toole’s examination that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his national security advisor, Jody Thomas, reportedly took issue with O’Toole’s characterization of CSIS’s May 2023 intelligence briefing.
The matter is politically charged, as O’Toole’s version of what CSIS told him about China’s targeting of the Conservatives conflicts with that of David Johnston, the “Special Rapporteur” appointed by Trudeau’s government to review CSIS intelligence.
This isn’t the first time Trudeau and his senior political and security advisors have clashed with CSIS intelligence reports or how others have reported CSIS intelligence.
In previous testimony, the Commission heard that unidentified CSIS witnesses claimed Trudeau’s national security advisor, Jody Thomas, asked CSIS to alter a sensitive intelligence report regarding the 2019 Don Valley North nomination. The Commission has also heard evidence that Chinese officials interfered in the Liberal Party contest, directing busloads of Chinese students to vote for a particular candidate.
"Witness 2 explained that they believed a report concerning the Don Valley North nomination contest was recalled at the request of the National Security and Intelligence Advisor [in 2023]," a commission document states. "Witness 2 noted that it was not common for the NSIA to request the recall of a report."
Drilling into that controversy, in previous examinations, a Conservative Party lawyer said:
"We have evidence from the CSIS witnesses that sometime after 2022 there was a meeting between a CSIS agent and Prime Minister’s Office staff, the Prime Minister, the Clerk of the Privy Council, the NSIA [Jody Thomas] and the CSIS director… And that the purpose of the meeting, was to discuss after the media leaks, all intelligence regarding Han Dong… A result of that meeting, was CSIS actually recalled or corrected CSIS’s assessment of the PRC Foreign Interference assessment."
In a wide-ranging interview this week with O’Toole’s counsel, The Bureau questioned whether a similar disagreement between O’Toole and Trudeau over the interpretation of CSIS intelligence — which O’Toole disclosed under parliamentary privilege — is now being used against O’Toole in the Hogue Commission proceedings. This issue is not just academic or historical, as some Hogue witnesses are now calling for sensitive intelligence identifying MPs accused of colluding with China and India to be disclosed in Parliamentary hearings.
During the interview, Preston Lim argued that O’Toole’s speech was a careful and responsible effort to inform Canadians about PRC interference — an issue O'Toole believed the Trudeau government had inadequately addressed.
Key points from O'Toole's speech:
Foreign Funding of Misinformation Campaigns:
O'Toole alleged that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) funneled money through the United Front Work Department (UFWD) to spread misinformation about him, targeting his policies and undermining his credibility as Conservative Party leader.Organized Human Resources for Misinformation Amplification:
He claimed that groups in Canada, aligned with the CCP's UFWD, were mobilized to enhance this disinformation campaign, obstructing his work as both an MP and opposition leader.Foreign-Controlled Social Media Manipulation:
O'Toole pointed to Chinese-controlled platforms like WeChat, used to spread false narratives against him. He argued this was part of a broader CCP strategy to manipulate public opinion and discredit his political efforts.Voter Suppression Campaign:
Intelligence briefings, according to O'Toole, indicated the CCP engaged in voter suppression during the 2021 general election, targeting him and a specific Conservative candidate.
Key Points from The Bureau’s interview with Preston Lim:
The Bureau asked, "I understood from the examination [of Erin O’Toole] that Prime Minister Trudeau and his National Security Advisor apparently took some issue with what they saw as the facts of Mr. O'Toole's speech in Parliament.
And the thought that automatically came to my mind, as I have been covering this, is in Phase One hearings, evidence was led indicating that National Security Intelligence advisors [for Trudeau] had asked high-level CSIS staff to change certain information in sensitive reports.
So this surfaced a question in my mind: if Mr. Trudeau and his senior security advisor have the capacity to ask CSIS to change its intelligence?
Now we have here, Mr. O'Toole is apparently getting his hand slapped, with the underlying fact being that Mr. Trudeau and his senior intelligence advisor didn't quite agree with what Mr. O'Toole’s reading of the intelligence was [in his Parliamentary speech]."
Lim responded: "I'm not going to comment on the specific allegations related to Trudeau and the Prime Minister’s Office’s relationship with the intelligence agencies.
But I will just underscore, if you actually go back to the text of Mr. O'Toole’s comments to the House, they are extremely high level. It's a substantive speech, but you can tell that he really isn't getting into specific facts that would indicate the precise sources of intelligence information or get into the nitty gritty of what might concern intelligence agencies.
It's a very high-level discussion. So the point I'd like to underscore is that if this kind of discussion in the House is generating what you rightly call a slap on the wrist, what kind of chilling effect might that have on other parliamentarians?
This was a speech that was very carefully made and for which advice was sought with counsel. If, after the conscientious efforts Mr. O'Toole made, the effect is still a slap on the wrist, I think we need to have a broader conversation about the restrictions under which the current government is operating."
The Hogue Commission also explored whether O'Toole’s speech contributed to a reduction in CSIS briefings to politicians. Lim expressed concern that, if true, it could have serious consequences for communication between intelligence agencies and elected officials.
"If high-level, appropriate balanced comments like this are leading to the shutoff of communication from CSIS to the public or certain constituencies, that’s very worrying," Lim stated.
Finally, Lim addressed the forthcoming testimony of former National Security Advisor Jody Thomas, emphasizing that O'Toole’s remarks were made in good faith, with legal advice, and kept at a high level to balance public awareness with national security interests.
Why it matters
Lim’s remarks spotlight a key issue for upcoming proceedings: whether parliamentary debate on critical security matters is being unduly restricted, raising questions about the influence the Prime Minister’s Office exerts on intelligence reporting and communication.
Thank you Sam! Hogue Commission = Special Rapporteur Johnstone = same outcome
Justin Trudeau is COMPROMISED! Just another cesspool being stirred. TRUDEAU and company need to fess up face the music, and no singing bohemian rhapsody.
Wow. At the time when O'Toole was the leader of the opposition Conservative party, I wondered if he would face pressure that some under-the-radar people and groups, expecting to continue to being able to manipulate politicians would come out from under their hidings. As a believer in freedom of expression and a very worried citizen as to the effects that an ineffective leader like Trudeau and the current Liberal government would have on my country I hoped he would be able to withstand the pressure. When it was announced that he was stepping down I got my answer. Very sad to see the country crumble the way it has. And now, our preening effete PM is at at the UN hoping to get some sort of position there to allow him to keep face with the inevitable fall from grace he is currently going through here. He is wanting some sort of soft landing that an offer of a position there would give him...kind of like Bob Rae, who did such harm to Ontario and Canada's current representative to the UN managed to get. I wish O'Toole the best as he is proving to be a stalwart Canadian with a clear understanding of this country and its values. He needs our support.